Pinup and Porn.. where is the line? NWS!! SORRY!!!

[PunkGirl_Inc]

Ok.. so i was looking at this new site thing, pinupparkinglot.. or whatever.. it seems like, to me, that a LOT of pinup models are getting more and more edgy.. or.. naked..
I know there different categories of modeling, but where does the line get drawn as far as pinup style portfolios??
is this pinup?
http://www.pinupparkinglot.com/blog_uploads/2009/01/_mg_6551-editwe...

or should these be considered somethign else??
this?:
http://www.pinupparkinglot.com/blog_uploads/2009/01/angem-012608-ch...

ABSOLUTELY NO OFFENSE to the photographers or models.. these photos are beautiful.. but are they "pinups"?????

[Sickgirl Creations *SGC*{PLA}]

Your going to hate this response but even those bimbos in the budwieser ads could be considered pin ups acording to www.dictionary.com

pin⋅up   /ˈpɪnˌʌp/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pin-uhp] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a large photograph, as of a sexually attractive person, suitable for pinning on a wall.
2. a person in such a photograph.
3. a device or fixture that is fastened to a wall, as a lamp.
–adjective 4. of, pertaining to, or appearing in a pinup: a pinup girl.
5. designed or suitable for hanging or fastening on a wall: a pinup lamp.

Also, pin-up.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1670–80 for general senses; 1940–45 as photograph of a pretty woman; n., adj. use of pin up

[Lady K Loves]

PunkGirl_Inc said:

if I were a photographer or a clothing designer..which i am, and i was looking through PINUP portfolios looking for a PINUP model, and i saw FETISH photos.. i wouldnt discount her, just be confused why I (as a business) have to be subjected to fetish or raunchy photos when im looking in a PINUP portfolio.. you know what i mean?? If i was looking for a FETISH model, i would look in the according portfolio..

I think that's a whole separate point. If you're casting for models, the thought and idea is that any models applying would have done some research into the company they are applying to and made sure their portfolio or submitted images are appropriate. By this logic, models who are interested in Fetish modeling will contact and apply for Fetish companies, the same can be said for 'classic' or 'retro' Pin-Up models and companies. Models and any agency's representing them should ensure their images are appropriate to the correct audience. On-line portfolio's will have a broader appeal, like a job hunting/c.v. web site, your c.v. will be broader to cover the jobs you may be interested in as opposed to it being tailored when contacting someone in specific.

As for where do these sit, it is done to the viewer, the context and presentation. One persons idea of Fetish will be one thing due to what they have seen before presented as 'Fetish', wether it fit's the official, cultural, or sub-cultural description or not. there will be fan's, companies and participants in cultures and sub cultures which cross over. Terms (particularly one/two word terms) are often used to describe a range of things, not necessarily fitting everyone idea.

I would say these are retro styled, but I don't know enough about fetish imagery or high end porn to accurately place these, past that.

LKL x

[Raven Foxx]

Poppy,
once again you are right on with your assessments....kudos!

Poppy Fields said:

Oooooooh this could get interesting!

IMO:

I would definitely classify these as "fetish".

They aren't porn, because they're too classy/refined/crisp. Porn - to me - implies a certain... lack of production value :) Slapped together, nasty models, nasty set and Attack of the 50" Vag!!!! Basically, porn is porn because it can't possibly be classified as "art", not even maybe; it exists for one purpose alone.
Summary: porn = body parts & lots of skin.

(Professional-grade) Fetish caters to specific tastes/categories. You need special costumes and sets and the final product is engineered, rather than *spread* CLICK *add another finger* CLICK and so on ;D Fetish looks good, like some effort went into it. It's a form of theatre.
Summary: fetish = components & scene; skin optional.

Really good fetish is absolutely art. The crossover happens when the subject/focus of the picture is no longer the situation or the props/costume, but the person or body being portrayed. I'm thinking of Annie Liebowitz's more controversial sets as an example. To draw the line: porn is fake, art is true.

(Classic) Pinup is a closer relation to fashion than fetish or porn. It is engineered, there are "situations", costume and props are generally integral, but the focus is divided between these. The girl is pretty, friendly, cute, accessible; never gorgeous (as she would then be unattainable) or intimidating in any way (unapproachable). The scene is non-threatening, feminine or comical and something everyone is familiar with: taking a bath, oops! strong wind gust, a day at the beach. Costuming and make up is sexy and saucy; titillating, but not wild and plays on common fantasies and desires, rather than full-blown fetishes. Pinup always works within a set of well-established boundaries; there is a lot of repetition, but it never gets old because it's just too gosh darn likeable! :)

Modern pinup draws from the classic standards and allows women to express themselves in a more accurate (to this time) manner, while honouring the ideals of the past: wilder hair, punk/goth/etc clothing, more aggressive expressions and body language. (Think of the development of pinup art from Nouveau to Deco to 30's to 50's... What was depicted was always appropriate to the time. Maybe a little scandalous, but never offensive.) BUT, the motivation is the same and the girl is still attractive and approachable. Most importantly, the humour remains.
Summary: pinup = balance & accessibility

Pinup vs. The Rest: the distinction is the sense of humour, the tease (as so many have said) and the equal importance of all elements in the picture.

[Tune in later for my next thesis dissertation. Yikes, woman, cram it!]

[Kristy C]

It seems to me things are leaning more towards the blatant sexy side rather than the subtly sexy, teasing, "more to the imagination" side. Girls are showing alot of skin, and photo shoots are getting racier and racier.

[Betty Red {PL Team / Madam}]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Pin-ups Hair Design Inc. said:

I personally think that the cool thing with traditional pinup images was the whole "Leave them wanting more." concept. You know, don't show them everything. Leave them wondering a bit and wanting more. While fetish and other nude art forms are still considered art, I do feel that the lines are getting a bit blurred.

[Candace Campbell]

Kim Bombshell said:

Who is the model in the first photo? She looks like Asia Divinyl, but I couldn't imagine Asia doing a photograph like that.

not Asia! Thats for sure not Asia!

[Kristy C]

Pin-ups Hair Design Inc. said:

I personally think that the cool thing with traditional pinup images was the whole "Leave them wanting more." concept. You know, don't show them everything. Leave them wondering a bit and wanting more

I feel that the scene is getting further and further away from that every day. I think because there has been such an influx of girls getting into pinup, it's caused a sense of fierce competition amongst the masses. I think that alot of girls feel that they have to show more skin and out-sex the next girl to get "known" I hate this, but sex sells and there are more than enough photographers and companies willing to encourage it to make a profit.....also websites like "pinuppost.com" where it is very obvious that unless you sex it up big time, he's not gonna post you. All of these things I feel are fueling girls to behave this way.
Personally, I am starting to get a little discouraged because I don't have nice pair of implants to show off to the world, I'm not super thin, and I don't have the money to pay for shoots with some of these photographers that are leaning toward the "sexy" side of things.....and all of those things seem to be what is taking over lately.
If you sense that I am a little bitter, you guessed right :)

[Poppy Fields]

::Ahem::
You have a BANGIN' body! It is quite obvious that you take good care of yourself; you are wonderfully proportioned. Implants and malnourishment be damned!

Kristy C said:

I feel that the scene is getting further and further away from that every day. I think because there has been such an influx of girls getting into pinup, it's caused a sense of fierce competition amongst the masses. I think that alot of girls feel that they have to show more skin and out-sex the next girl to get "known" I hate this, but sex sells and there are more than enough photographers and companies willing to encourage it to make a profit.....also websites like "pinuppost.com" where it is very obvious that unless you sex it up big time, he's not gonna post you. All of these things I feel are fueling girls to behave this way.
Personally, I am starting to get a little discouraged because I don't have nice pair of implants to show off to the world, I'm not super thin, and I don't have the money to pay for shoots with some of these photographers that are leaning toward the "sexy" side of things.....and all of those things seem to be what is taking over lately.
If you sense that I am a little bitter, you guessed right :)

[Lady Kadi]

Um. Wow. There is a fine line for sure. I think I will be covering this topic on the show next week. Everyone is welcome to come and give your opinion. Interesting topic!

[Wink Holliday]

This is for sure a tricky discussion. Yes, the strict definition of "pin-up" would be any picture worth the thumbtack. I think we can all agree that it's likely to be a girl as the subject matter. Anything beyond that... well, that's open to interpretation.
The phrase "pin-up," to me, infers a vintage or retro gal with a bit of teasing. The Coors girls? They're centerfolds. Yes, our beloved Bettie was a pin-up model, and a centerfold, and also shot fetish... but yes, they're are different genres within one art form. Just because it's the same model, doesn't make it the same thing.
The photos at the start of this thread are skillfully and artfully done, but to me, they're not pinup. It might be fine for to call them that for the masses, but when your audience is filled with retro fanatics, it's best to be very careful about your choice of words. :)

[Poppy Fields]

::Applause in sfphotojournal's general direction::
You make solid points re: history of art and censorship and how its relates to pinup. Sad to say, you're right. Still, I hope that our _overall_ psychology as a species will mean that there's always a place for the tease, even if the full meal deal is available.

[Helen Highwater]

No, I wouldn't say those are pin-up! Some interesting issues being raised, yes....

I think something else to think about when we talk about pin-up, implying vintage-style is - who's the audience, compared to the Maxim girls? (if we want to say, is there a difference between 'modern' pinup/centrefold & vintage-style pin-up?)? Mainly women. Mainly straight women? What I mean is, women are looking at the vintage-style pin-up pics not to get their genital jollies, but because they like the clothes, the hair, the make-up, the cheekiness, the styling etc etc etc. And maybe, yes, maybe even a straight woman might feel a sexual thrill looking at a pin-up pic. Yes of course men are the audience too, and some men will look at the pics and get a frisson, some will hide in a locked room with a box of tissues, others will be interested in the styling (and not just gay men either). And what of women who aren't het? Maybe women's sexuality isn't as corporeal as men's. As in, they can get turned on by seeing a pic of a woman in her undercrackers, rather than being presented with vajayjay. Which isn't to say there aren't lesbians/bi women who like explicit spread beaver shots, but.... It's similar to the burlesque thing. What most people think of as burlesque is stripping and the girls aren't embarrassed to say, "Yes I'm a stripper" but that doesn't automatically put them in the same boat as someone stripping off to do a personal dance in a 'gentlemen's club'. (the clue there being 'gentlemen's club' - mainly male audience? Whereas the burlesque shows I've been to have a mainly female audience).

I have done a naked photo myself, but you can't see anything and I based it on a classical painting! ;)

Re the comment about pinup-post... has anyone else noticed that he never has larger ladies on there? He's posted a transvestite man, but larger women? Heck no.