Pinup and Porn.. where is the line? NWS!! SORRY!!!

[PunkGirl_Inc]

Ok.. so i was looking at this new site thing, pinupparkinglot.. or whatever.. it seems like, to me, that a LOT of pinup models are getting more and more edgy.. or.. naked..
I know there different categories of modeling, but where does the line get drawn as far as pinup style portfolios??
is this pinup?
http://www.pinupparkinglot.com/blog_uploads/2009/01/_mg_6551-editwe...

or should these be considered somethign else??
this?:
http://www.pinupparkinglot.com/blog_uploads/2009/01/angem-012608-ch...

ABSOLUTELY NO OFFENSE to the photographers or models.. these photos are beautiful.. but are they "pinups"?????

[Miss Missy Photography]

I'd say it's fetish pinup...Both photos have something to do with feet (fetish) , she's styled as a pinup in the first one and the second one is tease, nothing is shown..It's not porn..There is no penetration..She's not showing everything..

[Miss Missy Photography]

http://images.google.com/images?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&...

Honey B Hooligan said:

I consider a shoe fetish being a fetish for nice shoes. At least all the women I have met, and men, that truly have fetishes for shoes....it was always nice shoes...one guy, it was red shoes. I have never, in my life, met anyone who had a fetish for clear, light up, stripper shoes. never.

that being said, I do not think that fetish is the new pin up. there have always been fetish photographers, and fetish Models. Take Bettie Page, for example. She had clearly done Pin-Up work (fully clothed cupcake style photography) and then she had her fetish photos with photogs like Irving Klaw (lots of bondage, lingerie, and leather)

They were clearly separate genres of photography. The proof is in the puddin' my friends; Go to Google Images, and google "pin up" and then "fetish". They are most definitely different things. and with that, I'm done. ;-)

Poppy Fields said:

Unless it was shoe fetish?

sfphotojournal said:

Honey B Hooligan said:

I would say that both of these are more Fetish than Pin-Up.

That being said, they both have a Pin-Up "feel" to them...the hair, the lighting...although, in both photos, the women look like they're having orgasms....def. NOT Pin-Up.

Beautiful Fetish photos though! (and I agree with SF...what is she doing with that SHOE??? I mean, I love my shoes...but DAMN!)

If they were stripper shoes then it would defintely porn.

[Honey B Hooligan {Madam}]

okay, now you're arguing semantics. you searched for "fetish pinup" which is a genre of it's own.

bottom line is that these photos aren't porn...just like I said in my original reply. Porn is trashy, fetish is art.

Pin up is pin up, fetish is fetish, and fetish pinup is a whole different kind of photography. it's almost like like showing wedding photography, and children's photography...but then saying "well what about pictures of kids AT weddings?"

semantics.

Miss Missy Photography said:

http://images.google.com/images?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&...

Honey B Hooligan said:

I consider a shoe fetish being a fetish for nice shoes. At least all the women I have met, and men, that truly have fetishes for shoes....it was always nice shoes...one guy, it was red shoes. I have never, in my life, met anyone who had a fetish for clear, light up, stripper shoes. never.

that being said, I do not think that fetish is the new pin up. there have always been fetish photographers, and fetish Models. Take Bettie Page, for example. She had clearly done Pin-Up work (fully clothed cupcake style photography) and then she had her fetish photos with photogs like Irving Klaw (lots of bondage, lingerie, and leather)

They were clearly separate genres of photography. The proof is in the puddin' my friends; Go to Google Images, and google "pin up" and then "fetish". They are most definitely different things. and with that, I'm done. ;-)

Poppy Fields said:

Unless it was shoe fetish?

sfphotojournal said:

Honey B Hooligan said:

I would say that both of these are more Fetish than Pin-Up.

That being said, they both have a Pin-Up "feel" to them...the hair, the lighting...although, in both photos, the women look like they're having orgasms....def. NOT Pin-Up.

Beautiful Fetish photos though! (and I agree with SF...what is she doing with that SHOE??? I mean, I love my shoes...but DAMN!)

If they were stripper shoes then it would defintely porn.

[Tabitha]

Wow, I really don't like that first pic. I more into the cheesecake photography when a woman can look sexy without being raunchy.

[Samantha Valentine]

This shoot (seen below) was suppose to be my homage to feet, stockings, legs & sexy lingerie and I consider this one of my most fetishist shoots... but still I think most people see it as a traditional or classic styled shoot. I tried to add both of those elements because I do think you can have both co-exist in a photo.
www.samantha-valentine.com/vintage4.htm
Many Bettie Page's cheesecake shoots were nude. Sure the shots above cross the line a bit more than maybe Bettie did but as I mentioned in another post on this subject as society changes so do we and I am sure Bettie would have too if she was modeling in our times.
www.vampress.net/bettie/nudes.html
Believe me I worked for the porno industry for many years and I would not consider the shots in the original post to be porn. Another famous pin-up model, Dita Von Teese, got her start in fetish and even porn. Anyone ever see Andrew Blake's Pin-Ups 2? I would classify that somewhat as porn, definitely erotica. If you think a pic of Angela Ryan with a shoe near her vagina counts as porno than this would be down right smut. I enjoy both things as art and even though they may not be TRADITIONAL pin-up they do fall into a pin-up category.

[Samantha Valentine]

Like I said maybe we need to remove the word pin-up as being retro, classic, cheesecake or traditional and start thinking of the genres that fall into pin-up (like fetish, Maxim and even Playboy).
I wouldn't consider a lot of things I see on many sites as traditional pin-up that are marketed as such but I certainly feel it all has a place within the genre of pin-up.
It looks like a lot of us here make our own definitions of what pin-up is and it depends on what it means to you personally. Here is some definitions from Google:
- A cover girl: a very pretty girl who works as a photographer's model
(That's pretty broad. That could include even fetish);
- A pin-up girl or pin-up model is a model whose mass-produced pictures see wide appeal as pop culture. Pin-ups are intended for informal display. Pin-up girls are often glamour models, fashion models, and actresses.
(I haven't seen many modern cheesecake photos that are "mass produced.")
- A photograph, printed in a magazine or other publication, of a sexually attractive person (often nude or provocatively dressed), and intended to be removed and pinned up on a wall.
(that's pretty much Playboy right there).
I think the word pin-up is a very broad term. Your thinking of it in the traditional sense of the word but I think it has definitely evolved over the years into something more than cheesecake.
XoXoX
PunkGirl_Inc said:

Right, that was kind of the point in the beginning.. i thought it was a pinup / car site.. and the pinup portfolios had fetish photos in them.. so i was wondering why they were considered pinup.. i love the site.. i mean its got way more than just pictures of lovely ladies.. It just made me think.. and when i think, it can be dangerous! however.. it turned out to be a great topic.. i love the opinions!

Samantha Valentine said:

Also I'd like to mention that MOST of the Pin Up Parking Lot is your favorite modern retro styled pin-up beauties like Dayna Delux, Sabina Kelley, Heidi Van Horne & Bernie Dexter. This site is pretty damn awesome in my opinion! And it is so nice to see more outlets for this culture!
XoXoX

[PunkGirl_Inc]

Agreed on the evolution.. I know times are different.. but I think its sad to say that nothing was preserved.. or that the classic idea of pinup is gone with the times.. I know there are a few people out there who pride themselves on being a pinup or liking pinup and dress in retro fashion and live the "lifestyle" and arent fetishy or whatever..does that mean THEY have to accept fetish as pinup? and if I were a photographer or a clothing designer..which i am, and i was looking through PINUP portfolios looking for a PINUP model, and i saw FETISH photos.. i wouldnt discount her, just be confused why I (as a business) have to be subjected to fetish or raunchy photos when im looking in a PINUP portfolio.. you know what i mean?? If i was looking for a FETISH model, i would look in the according portfolio.. i guess i just can't accept the one in the same theory.. they are 2 different genres to me!!

Samantha Valentine said:

Like I said maybe we need to remove the word pin-up as being retro, classic, cheesecake or traditional and start thinking of the genres that fall into pin-up (like fetish, Maxim and even Playboy).
I wouldn't consider a lot of things I see on many sites as traditional pin-up that are marketed as such but I certainly feel it all has a place within the genre of pin-up.
It looks like a lot of us here make our own definitions of what pin-up is and it depends on what it means to you personally. Here is some definitions from Google:
- A cover girl: a very pretty girl who works as a photographer's model
(That's pretty broad. That could include even fetish);
- A pin-up girl or pin-up model is a model whose mass-produced pictures see wide appeal as pop culture. Pin-ups are intended for informal display. Pin-up girls are often glamour models, fashion models, and actresses.
(I haven't seen many modern cheesecake photos that are "mass produced.")
- A photograph, printed in a magazine or other publication, of a sexually attractive person (often nude or provocatively dressed), and intended to be removed and pinned up on a wall.
(that's pretty much Playboy right there).
I think the word pin-up is a very broad term. Your thinking of it in the traditional sense of the word but I think it has definitely evolved over the years into something more than cheesecake.
XoXoX
PunkGirl_Inc said:

Right, that was kind of the point in the beginning.. i thought it was a pinup / car site.. and the pinup portfolios had fetish photos in them.. so i was wondering why they were considered pinup.. i love the site.. i mean its got way more than just pictures of lovely ladies.. It just made me think.. and when i think, it can be dangerous! however.. it turned out to be a great topic.. i love the opinions!

Samantha Valentine said:

Also I'd like to mention that MOST of the Pin Up Parking Lot is your favorite modern retro styled pin-up beauties like Dayna Delux, Sabina Kelley, Heidi Van Horne & Bernie Dexter. This site is pretty damn awesome in my opinion! And it is so nice to see more outlets for this culture!
XoXoX

[Reynolds Kosloskey]

I think everyone's got an opinion of what "pin-up" is, probably because it now seems to be used as a term to describe a vast array of imagery. For my 2 cents, I perceive pin-up as a balancing act between innocence and sex-appeal". More flirt, flaunt and fun then serious, seductive and steamy. Not that I'd knock the fetish side of the equation that has become so connected with the genre, there's certainly a lot of great imagery that's being painted on the canvass in this area. But when someone says pin-up to me, I envision the playful Bettie Page style motif rather than the serious harder edge look, however vintage it may be.

Just my 2 cents.

--Reynolds

[Los Furias Tiki]

Whatever your chosen medium, there are always areas where the study of any human figure will stray into the realms of the pornographic... But then, each individual has a very different perception of what does and doesn't constitute pornography.

For me, the appropriation of elements of the classic pin up world by other, more graphic industries is usually marked by a lack of the humour or narrative in the classic images that have always appealed to me. I always assume that an image becomes pornographic when its sole purpose is to arouse a sexual response from the viewer and focuses solely on the elements needed to get that job done.

Classic pin up art existed at a time where hard core pornography flourished, so it's not an issue of costume or make up. It's the attitude in which it is presented and the effort made to capture that coy, hyper reality that was - at the time - designed to inspire faith in a better world than the one most people were living in (or, in the case of a lot of young men, about to die for).

Again, it's down to the individual... But the term 'pin up' has covered a wide number of styles and levels of social tolerance for nudity. I guess people just need to be very clear that when they say 'pin up' they're actually talking about the extremely stylised images that came from a very specific period in pop culture history and not any image of a pretty girl designed to be revered by the viewer.

[Thesally]

My two cents,

Here we have a (not so) subtle difference: pin up usually is suggerent, versus these modern nude photographies, that a bit explicit. Pin up pictures are, as far as I know, about: "I'll show it to you, but not", not about: "I'm ready for a close-up, Mr. Demille" :-)

But these pictures (and the three models) are beautiful, and I have seen more explicit ones...

[Harmony Walker]

wow! Not sure about the first....porn.. second is borderline

i say the first is porn because of the shoe lol! i think they used pinup as a theme...but looks like they are selling meat LOL!

[Delyssia LaBelle {Madam}]

i like what you have to say here, about it being "pin up" able , even the pinup queen betty page did fetish photos but thats what they were, fetish not pin up. she did both and i think alot of the gals are doing both, but is it pinup, naw.
Sadie Sparkle said:

I think that pin-up's should be just that - a picture that you would liteally pin up on your wall at work/in you office or wherever the heck you want to. Those, to me, are a little too much towards the porn side of things for me to do that.

They are very good though, even if they are a little racy haha.

xxx