Photographers and other people's edits

[John at My Favorite Pinups{★}]

Something happened very recently that I'm trying to see if this is the exception and not the general rule

There is a pinup girl that I am quite good friends with and she had some shots done
The shots are pretty good, don't get me wrong, but something was missing

I did find out later that this person is not a pinup photographer per se
(I'm not naming the girl or the photographer)

So I tell me friend to get me the orig files at full size and my wife, the photoshop goddess, will do some editing and give it a old pinup look

She asks the photographer and he says no

This is the part I don't get
We're offering to edit the pics gratis
No credit either.. just a favor for a friend
and yet we can't.. seems silly to me

so we took the examples she gave me to look at
already edited and the photographers logo in the print
and my wife did 9 great examples of taking a shot and making it look retro as well as making a few cosmetic changes that I felt were needed

ok there is the background
what's your take on it?

John

[Rachel Spring]

Personally I don't really like people touching my photos because I edit them as I see fit, ya know, it's my work, my art, I'm really protective of it. If I do let someone edit my work then it's generally because I look up to that person and they want to show me something on photoshop, but I really have to trust them. Maybe this photographer feels the same. I wouldn't take it personally.

[Wink Holliday]

Unless your friend arranged to buy the copyright from the photographer, the photographer owns those files and not the model. He (I assume) has no obligation to turn over the high-res files, and his lawyer would probably recommend against letting them out of his control.
Legal issues aside, it's likely that he feels your offer to tweak the images, no matter how well-meaning, is a commentary on his ability as a photographer. If he was a painter, would you offer to touch up his finished canvas? Just because he uses a camera instead of a brush doesn't make him less of an artist, regardless of his skill.
But you're welcome to touch up my images for free any time! :)

[Edson Carlos]

1 word.

ART.

Its subjective, and it will always be. I like one thing, you like another, in the end what I created is mine and I can be a b**** about it, or learn to be open minded.

Look around at some of the art these days in museums...if you walked up to the artist and said "Hey thats kinda basic let me fix it for you" You'd prob get socked. Ontop of that, you'd upset many fans that appreciate those 2 lines and 3 dots.

ART my friend...the sooner you realize some artists are just not artists and its best to keep your 2 cents in your pocket, you'll be drama-free =)

I'm a retoucher, i ask first, and i give it my view of perfection. I showed off my stuff in the chat last night.

[John at My Favorite Pinups{★}]

I guess as a musician, recording and performing, I've always looked to people who know more than me to learn from.
Not even people who are necessarily better than I am, but people who know different things

I believe what I do in the studio is an art and live as well
that doesn't mean I won't take suggestions from an engineer on how to play a line differently or even better
and in the mixing/post production phase, when effects come into play and adding that polish to a tune... because the engineer adds some EQ to my bass or some creative editing on a line does that make the recording less of my art?

maybe I'm making a leap in thought...
I dunno

[John at My Favorite Pinups{★}]

Wink Holliday said:

If he was a painter, would you offer to touch up his finished canvas? Just because he uses a camera instead of a brush doesn't make him less of an artist, regardless of his skill.

Wink...
a finished canvas of an artists vision?
no.. art is way too subjective that way

a picture that is in an unfinished state trying to get what the customer is paying for?
yes I would

Here is where I believe hairs can be split
Who is the artist in this scenario?
the model who is trying to get a specific look and feel or the photographer trying to capture the models vision on camera?

Therein lies the question for me I think

[Edson Carlos]

Deep thoughts John, and I feel you on that for sure, I view it the same way, I wish I could re-retouch so many photos a day that are probably worse off after the photog puts it in photoshop than before. You're right that in the audio world we have what is called the Mastering phase, this phase is done by pros whos job it is to create what the masses feel is a perfect production of your art. It's truly a shame that the photography world doesn't function the same, well...it does, but only in the Advertising industry. A friend of mine works for a firm here in SF. It is AMAZING how a large clothing company will remove wrinkles in a jean from one spot and add it to another, how they will add a blemish to a face, while at the same time changing the persons eye colors. its worked to "perfection". All that matters is that the execution itself is perfect. And the finished image? Well it's perfection in someone's eyes, ya just can't lose!

[NolaChick™ {Madam}]

Well, the photographer was maybe insulted that someone wanted to edit his work after he had completed editing it.

[Filmmonkey]

It's his work. Even if he's new to pinup he'll need to learn on his own. Not just someone saying "you take the picture and I'll make it better".
If the model is not happy with what she paid for or traded for then she needs to work it out with the photographer.

If you really think that it's info he needs or could benefit from, maybe try a different approach. EVERYONE knows a photoshop expert. I'm married to one. That's not reason enough to alter someone else's work.

If you feel strongly about your services you can prepare some demo images of generic or public domain work and send them to the photographer.

And I agree whole heartedly with the painter and painting analogy. High end ad work, and the process of making a studio album or a studio movie and collaborative processes and you understand that going in. This isn't like someone suggesting a new way to play a phrase, it's like someone taking your completed track and remixing it to a polka beat.

I may be overly sensitive to this, because I've had it happen to me. I may not be the best anything at what I do, but I strive to make it my work. There's a good chance that he did more than just show up and take pictures. He may have planned the shot, researched what he thought the model wanted, maybe rented a studio or equipment, had an assistant on hand etc.

[John at My Favorite Pinups{★}]

That is prob the best answer Daddy Cool
I'm approaching it from the thought that we are discussing a product not art for arts sake

thanks everyone for your take on it, I think I have the answer I was looking for

John
Daddy Cool said:

Deep thoughts John, and I feel you on that for sure, I view it the same way, I wish I could re-retouch so many photos a day that are probably worse off after the photog puts it in photoshop than before. You're right that in the audio world we have what is called the Mastering phase, this phase is done by pros whos job it is to create what the masses feel is a perfect production of your art. It's truly a shame that the photography world doesn't function the same, well...it does, but only in the Advertising industry.

[Soda Shop Sue]

i aggree

NolaChick™ said:

Well, the photographer was maybe insulted that someone wanted to edit his work after he had completed editing it.

[Through My Eyes Photography]

Personally I too have a problem with other people editing my pics. However if someone was to ask me and show me what was done to the image and I like it I have no problem. I will even credit the person for the editing. This is a touchy subject with me as I have a model who has been editing my images and not in a good way. This is how I see it, the model can purchase the images and I will release the rights to her no problem.

[VI Photography]

I think it would underhand the photographer, i wouldnt let anyone touch my photos, even if there are better than me. I would just call it good and stick with a better known pinup photographer next time :)