How have TF shoots worked for you?

[Modeling]

Okay so like I understand what a TF is more or less, but really what does it mean for me as a model? And what do I do to protect myself and pictures from being manipulated. So I hope that makes sense. Please HELP :) trying to get more of a base on my portfolio and I have photographers who say they will do TF with me. Just really want to know what exactly it means on all aspects. 

Thanks 

Ginger 

[Cory Sinklier]

That is not true.

 

BlueHairMedia said:

Oh!  ...One more thing... The general rule or copyright law is as follows... If you are paying the photographer, you own the copyright to the images... if you are being paid by the photographer, they own the right to the images and can manipulate them any way they see fit.  When it comes to a trade its a bit more foggy... This situation really needs to be outlined by both parties on what their intentions are regarding the photos.

-Cory, BlueHair Media

[Pastel Supernova]

Hi Ginger,

 

TF shoots are amazing for practicing and honing in on your skill. It'll also help network and build your portfolio, of course. The key to a successful trade is to communicate clearly with your photographer and anyone else involved in the creative before the shoot as to who gets to use the photos, for what purposes etc... This can be easily written out in a model release form which you can even find on apps! 

Happy shooting!

xox

Pastel

[Art & Soul Photography]

I agree with East Coast Pinups in what they had to say. As a photographer, I believe the biggest issues come from clients/models not understanding copyright. You have to know that having your picture taken (paid for or otherwise) does not give you ANY rights to that image. None. Even if he image is provided to you on disc, you still do not have the right to use it in contests, sell the image, allow a company to use, allow it to be published on a blog, etc. Only the copyright owner, the photographer, can dictate the way the image is used.

So, the thing that should be clear with your photographer before ANY images are taken, is how you wish to use those images. A release can be issued by the photographer for multiple things, and many are willing to release images for lots of different usage, especially when it's TFP. But signing a model release has nothing to do with this portion of it. The usage agreement should be signed from the photographer. If you just receive images from a photographer without a release, it could come back to haunt you and cause issues. The photographer would have every legal right to ask you to remove images, etc.And this goes for all images, for hire, or for trade! Wedding images, family portraits, modeling, etc.

Now many photographers, especially those just starting out, are as ignorant to this as anyone else. Just make sure everything is discussed in advance, how both of you intend to use the images, which would cover the model release AND the usage release, put it all in writing and both of you sign it. It'll save everyone a lot of confusion later.

[Art & Soul Photography]

This statement is 100% completely incorrect. Paying for photography services gives you absolutely no rights to the images whatsoever.

BlueHairMedia said:

Oh!  ...One more thing... The general rule or copyright law is as follows... If you are paying the photographer, you own the copyright to the images... if you are being paid by the photographer, they own the right to the images and can manipulate them any way they see fit. 

-Cory, BlueHair Media

 

Just an FYI to all models out there- any photographer who says they are fully releasing the copyright to you, either does not know what they're talking about, or is not very smart, IMO. If I release a copyright, I can no longer claim to be the author of that photograph. as the photographer I couldn't put the image on my website, use it on my blog, show it in my studio, or even claim that I took the photograph! This of course, would completely defeat the purpose.

[Edson Carlos]

I just want to point out in all fairness that your statement isn't 100% correct either. A blanket statement can't be made that includes, excludes, or addresses every single release form drafted and signed or situation. Clients may or may not be given rights to utilize the images commercially or in certain cases the photographer is hired specifically by a business with the sole purpose of creating images the photographer or models have no rights to use.

 

e

Art & Soul said:

This statement is 100% completely incorrect. Paying for photography services gives you absolutely no rights to the images whatsoever.

BlueHairMedia said:

Oh!  ...One more thing... The general rule or copyright law is as follows... If you are paying the photographer, you own the copyright to the images... if you are being paid by the photographer, they own the right to the images and can manipulate them any way they see fit. 

-Cory, BlueHair Media

 

Just an FYI to all models out there- any photographer who says they are fully releasing the copyright to you, either does not know what they're talking about, or is not very smart, IMO. If I release a copyright, I can no longer claim to be the author of that photograph. as the photographer I couldn't put the image on my website, use it on my blog, show it in my studio, or even claim that I took the photograph! This of course, would completely defeat the purpose.

 

[Art & Soul Photography]

Edson- I agree with you, but the previous poster stated that copryight law is as follows, and it is not. They stated that paying the photographer means you own the copyrights to the images. And it does not.

That is what is 100% incorrect.

Now any kind of release, agreement, or arrangement can be made to modify rights, absolutely! But payment is of no way a modification, determination, or designation of copyright law.

 

Edson Carlos {PL Team} said:

I just want to point out in all fairness that your statement isn't 100% correct either. A blanket statement can't be made that includes, excludes, or addresses every single release form drafted and signed or situation. Clients may or may not be given rights to utilize the images commercially or in certain cases the photographer is hired specifically by a business with the sole purpose of creating images the photographer or models have no rights to use.

 

e

Art & Soul said:

This statement is 100% completely incorrect. Paying for photography services gives you absolutely no rights to the images whatsoever.

BlueHairMedia said:

Oh!  ...One more thing... The general rule or copyright law is as follows... If you are paying the photographer, you own the copyright to the images... if you are being paid by the photographer, they own the right to the images and can manipulate them any way they see fit. 

-Cory, BlueHair Media

 

Just an FYI to all models out there- any photographer who says they are fully releasing the copyright to you, either does not know what they're talking about, or is not very smart, IMO. If I release a copyright, I can no longer claim to be the author of that photograph. as the photographer I couldn't put the image on my website, use it on my blog, show it in my studio, or even claim that I took the photograph! This of course, would completely defeat the purpose.

 

[photoassassin{★}]

This isn't 100% correct. If you're paying for a shoot, your rights to use those images are still defined by the photographer, who is the copyright holder of those images. Any usage agreement should be spelled out in a licensing agreement that determine the venues and amount of time that an image may be published/posted. That's pretty much a commercial standing, so if you're doing shoots for something on your own, you still won't have the rights to sell that image commercially on your own.

Cory Sinklier said:

That is not true.

 

BlueHairMedia said:

Oh!  ...One more thing... The general rule or copyright law is as follows... If you are paying the photographer, you own the copyright to the images... if you are being paid by the photographer, they own the right to the images and can manipulate them any way they see fit.  When it comes to a trade its a bit more foggy... This situation really needs to be outlined by both parties on what their intentions are regarding the photos.

-Cory, BlueHair Media

[Jessica Darling {*}]

Hey Ginger! I feel like I may provide some insight to your queries :) I've been amateur modeling since '07... and ***little known fact*** I'm actually graduating in December with my fine arts degree with a concentration in photography (finally! LOL) and am planning to continue with more schooling next fall.  So I've been on both sides of the equation. I've actually been photographed by some of my teachers over the years.

 

A VERY good point that several people have made thus far is to check the photogs credentials. Do they have a website? A studio? How long have they been established? Check out their portfolio if possible. I can't tell you how many time I've seen a "photographer" who just picked up some fancy nikon and a light kit not knowing anything about the equipment.

 

While I appreciate the artistic and sentimental quality of more lo-fi type photographs... this isn't what you're wanting if your goal is to expand your pinup portfolio. You need to be shot by photographers who know how to use lighting and camera angles to flatter you! Look for photographers who have shot female models before, and have work similar to what you'd want in your portfolio. Not trying to be blunt... but if you don't see anything you like in someone's portfolio, then wouldn't you be wasting your time (and theirs) by pursuing a shoot with them? Starting out, I'll admit any shoots are good just for the experience. But you have every right to be a little picky about who you shoot with, just as photogs have the right to be picky about who they shoot.

 

I'd advise you to try all different kinds of poses and outfits, with a fairly equal balance of outdoors and studio shots. What you don't want is a portfolio full of the same shots! I noticed early on I kept going back to the laying down pose with my legs up... so I would bring props with me and my own music! Music helps you loosen up and move around more... so you'll get LOTS of different shots. Go check out other PL-ers for inspiration! What Edson has been doing lately with his photography is so great, and Roxy, Betty, and the other madams on here here have beautiful ports! I always keep a folder with "inspiration" photos... just as references.

 

If you live near there's a college with an art program... they are ALWAYS looking for models (trust me!) The good thing about that is that they have access to high quality equipment like lights, a studio setting, a lab, really nice printers, etc. So they can provide you with some really interesting stuff practically for free. I had to take three painting classes and many times when we'd paint from the model, we would give her/him our finished work. That would be something really unique to add to your portfolio in addition to photographs. Had to have a shameless art school kid plug :) XOXO

 

 

[East Coast Pinups]

Cory, I didn't mean for my reply to be a stinging comment. I honestly didn't. In all honesty, without ready, willing and able models, we'd all be outside shooting flowers and squirrels. There really is a very fine balance in the work we do as photographers (time, equipment, honing our craft, and carving out our own individual niche, etc... ) and the same goes for many of the models we may work with. Be it a photographer, a model, mua, stylist, etc... there are those that will pursue it with passion, and those that are just doing it for the accolades (the "look at what I can do" factor), acceptance, etc... There is a mutual respect that forms almost instantly with the ones that take the art of photography and modeling seriously. Are there models I've worked with where I know what I bring to the table is more valuable than what they are bringing me? Absolutely, however, it's my JOB to deliver the goods to them. Doesn't matter if they have never modeled before, or if they have 10 years of modeling under their belt. They come to us for a purpose. Is it a valuable one? Yes it is, but it doesn't always have a pricetag or compensation attached to it. So a blanket comment like "our time is more valuable" can leave many folks with a bad taste in their mouth. After some time, we all resign ourselves to understanding that this industry has changed greatly in the last 20 years or so. I think we're all doing more work on a trade or test basis than we ever have. The hard part is distinguishing what trades or test will be beneficial to all the parties involved. The back-end work of editing should play right along with the front-end, and with a little extra time on the front-end, it will drastically reduce the amount of back-end work of processing and editing. It's just the nature of the beast today. I shot film for 20 years, without the benefit of chimping in a viewfinder, or the luxury of digital editing. So my shooting time hasn't really changed much, and my attention to the actual shoot process is exactly the same. This reduces the amount of editing, save for any "special" processes or heavy manipulating. Dead on exposures, and attention to fly-away hairs, hair that creeps into a models face or eyes, loose strands of thread on a garment, garment tags that have wiggled their way out of a shirt or blouse, etc... these are many of the things that can cause added editing time if they are not correct at the time of the actual shoot.

 

As far as workflow in general, everything I do, from the prep of the shoot, the shoot itself, and editing, is all very deliberate. For me it's a discipline. It's taken YEARS of many mistakes and failures to create this discipline. And it's all intertwined. There's no magic bullet  or software for editing workflow, save for "getting it right" in the camera right from the start. With that being said, I can run off 4-5 different looks with 20-30 frames from each look, and only have a max of say 200 frames that I have to worry about for editing purposes. If I'm only looking at 25 frames of one particular look, it cuts the time of the selection process in a very big way. Knowing my lighting and framing is done correctly, also cuts down the processing times and any batching I do (I use Lightroom for this as well)...all that's left is some blemish removal, skin work, and maybe a stray hair here and there that's finished up in CS5. So my big gem of personal wisdom is that it's less about the software, and more about our DISCIPLINE, and how we approach our shooting.

 

Cory Sinklier said:

Ouch!  I am open for suggestions.  I use lightroom primarily.  What workflow have you found that delivers finished images faster than the photographing?  I need that!  Thanks.  Take a look at my stuff if you get a chance.  I appreciate comments and critiques.

East Coast Pinups said:

If you're spending more time behind the computer than with the camera, then you might want to investigate your workflow efficiency. Using this as an excuse to say your time is more valuable than the time a model puts in, is simply outrageous.

Cory Sinklier said:

Unless you have it in writing in the model release, you do not have any power over the images being manipulated.  But honestly, I am not sure what you expect.  Anytime you model, you are offering yourself to be manipulated for one purpose or many.  If you are getting images out of the deal, I do not see the problem.  Perhaps you are worried that your likeness will be used for something obscene?  If that's the case, make sure that is specifically in writing.  As a photographer, it is sometimes frustrating to give so much to models for their time.  You have to consider there is a lot more time spent behind the computer after a shoot than behind the camera.  TF models are getting a great deal in my opinion.  That's why I use paying models much more often.

[Kustomkarma]

Lots of good responses in these posts, but it leaves me a little intimidated. I enjoy shooting models and enjoy contributuing to the scene more from an Art angle as I have studied drawing, painting, etc. my entire life. I don't expect to ever make any money from this, but it would be nice to be invloved. I have a day job, so I'll never be able to get as much experience as someone that shoots for a living. There's also the issue of finding people that are willing to work with you. Since I'm just getting back into this seriously, I figured I'd try to work with models that are starting out so we could progress at a similar pace as we're both going to make mistakes but hopefully improve over time. This all leads me to pose a couple of questions to the photographers on here. What is a good way to gain credibility? Should I somehow be collecting references? I would love to study with a professional, but my time is limited by my career - should I be thinking about some kind of apprenticeship? I'm very dedicated to pursuing this, but have been more or less learning this on my own as best I can. Any input in regard to the above would be awesome and appreciated. :)

[Roxy Tart {PL Team / Comm. Mgr}]

Since this is a thread about TF shoots, I think we need to keep it on topic. However, KustomKarma, you have some great questions, please feel free to start a new thread asking them, I think it will be a good conversation.

 

Thank so much!

Kustomkarma said:

Lots of good responses in these posts, but it leaves me a little intimidated. I enjoy shooting models and enjoy contributuing to the scene more from an Art angle as I have studied drawing, painting, etc. my entire life. I don't expect to ever make any money from this, but it would be nice to be invloved. I have a day job, so I'll never be able to get as much experience as someone that shoots for a living. There's also the issue of finding people that are willing to work with you. Since I'm just getting back into this seriously, I figured I'd try to work with models that are starting out so we could progress at a similar pace as we're both going to make mistakes but hopefully improve over time. This all leads me to pose a couple of questions to the photographers on here. What is a good way to gain credibility? Should I somehow be collecting references? I would love to study with a professional, but my time is limited by my career - should I be thinking about some kind of apprenticeship? I'm very dedicated to pursuing this, but have been more or less learning this on my own as best I can. Any input in regard to the above would be awesome and appreciated. :)

[Kustomkarma]

No problem, I didn't mean to take things on a tangent. Can my comment be moved or is there some way to delete it and start over?