Why do photographers do this?

[Vintage Suits by Mary]

I've noticed here on PL that a lot of photographers post in the Casting Call section when they are booking shoots, but they are not casting calls at all but trolling for girls to pay them to shoot. I always thought a casting call was looking for a girl to shoot and either she would be paid or compensated in some other way, not the other way around.
Shouldn't there be another forum for this? That way, when a photographer, or business has a real casting call it won't get lost in the enormous amount of posts from photographers wanting to drum up business. (Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with looking for paid work, it just seems like the wrong forum for it)

[Robert Hatch Photography]

I might be bias but,
If you had the choice be it model or photographer to click on a tfp button or paid gigs button which would you click? Okay that eliminates one button! I agree in some manner that there might be a little room for a seperation in that most people don't get e-mails booking them for a $10,000 mercedes commercial. (made up that number,and I don't know if mercedes even uses real people but you get the point) I guess what I'm saying is that we the photographer help those who don't have Ford Model Management on speed dial, and you the model also help the photographers that aren't well funded by giant corporate clients to excel at what they do. So you see we all need each other here, this is not MM or Star search.

How's this sound guys?

- ( PHOTOGRAPHERS BOOKING IN/FOR: )E-mails from photographers letting you know they are shooting in your area and are there if you need them, rates, style, etc?

- ( CASTING CALL: ) E-mail for casting one armed, green eyed, dark haired, 3 toof, harachi wearing wonder woman in what ever area ( you get the point)

[Eric LaGuarda]

If purposes are different, it seems to me normal to separate them. In France, a casting call means a model selection for a official (& paid) shooting (catalogue, defile, advertising...)... I don't know if french usage is really interesting for you, but I love to underline I'm french lol

[Hope Duffy]

I say keep it simple and leave it on the same forum but seperate it by the title. Just makes things easier IMO.

[Auburn Hills]

Hope Duffy said:

I say keep it simple and leave it on the same forum but seperate it by the title. Just makes things easier IMO.

+1 A descriptive title would be very helpful to everyone I think.

[Vintage Suits by Mary]

I like your idea.
when I worked for large companies, we would have occasional casting calls, and I think that the models would have been (rightly) angry if we then told them they had to PAY to shoot with us! That is NOT a casting call. A casting call is always a job posting, and never an advertisement.

Robert Hatch Photography said:

BR>How's this sound guys?

- ( PHOTOGRAPHERS BOOKING IN/FOR: )E-mails from photographers letting you know they are shooting in your area and are there if you need them, rates, style, etc?

- ( CASTING CALL: ) E-mail for casting one armed, green eyed, dark haired, 3 toof, harachi wearing wonder woman in what ever area ( you get the point)

[Vintage Suits by Mary]

I like your idea, Sara! ;D

Sara Sundae said:

I agree, this has been bothering me for months -props for speaking up and saying something! Whatever happened to the good old fashioned "go sees" when models can line up to meet potential employers and be interviewed? I see the same models over and over again and get the impression no one looks for "fresh faces" anymore unless they're paying- which is fine- (but I had a pro offer me a shoot and I agreed to pay and that person flaked on me- so I no longer look at those casting calls either!) I get it- photographers have their "muses", but I'm sure there are other opportunities out there- like online catalog work or something. Maybe I should post a simmilar "casting call": "Model seeks Photographer, $50 gets you ME, hair and make up done, 3-4 looks, in my lovingly restored '59 home with real period props, free snacks and beer included. Need 3-4 photographers!" Think I'll get some business???

[Jason Allen]

It's actually against the rules (or at least it used to be) to post casting calls on Model Mayhem asking to be paid. I find it to be a kind of a tacky way of drumming up business, but to each their own I guess.


- Jason

[Edson Carlos]

• I think it's safe to say that themed photo sessions are completely different than grabbing a camera and shooting at a car show.

Some photographers I can only imagine spend a great amount of time locking in locations to shoot at, paying for permits, building sets, buying props etc.

With opportunities like that you're buying not only your prints, but a "pinup/studio" experience.

• Scalability. So many scenarios are posted: photographers, models, vendors, & MUAH all post seeking & available opportunities. The next subset of options is PAID TO: service provider/talent or TFP. That adds 3 more levels of complexity to the opportunities that get listed.

Someone do the math, how many different types of Casting Calls can be posted, unrealistic that we have separate categories. Robert, I love what you typed up, thank you for your time. I hope other photographers chime in with details and insight also!

The goal here is to up the quality of this fairly low budget industry.

[Aubrey London {Madam}]

I can see the point from both sides, but there is a lot of grey area on this topic also. There are some new photographers looking for TF shoots to get some practice in. There are new models who are looking for TF shoots as well as a great deal with a seasoned photographer who can really fatten up a models portfolio. On the flipside of things I can see why it may be a little bit of a let down when a model is looking for paid work, (although I suspect that may not happen very often) and clicks on what they think is a paid job and in fact it is a photographer wanting to book some shoots so they can make money (which is understandable). I think the best way is to just try to be as detailed in the title of the Casting Call post and say whether it is a paid gig, or a promotional deal on a booking. There are a lot of girls who look for discounted rates from their favorite photographers as well so this may help everybody.

[Edson Carlos]

Interesting thought. I believe you had threads for paid shoots when you traveled to new locations. It's not a secret that due to MM's attempt to keep things TFP it's become a petri dish of creeps with the occasional amazing photographers looking to book a TFP shoot.

Regardless of their attempt, many of the threads state TFP for specific models selected, and "great rates" for others. HIGHLY misleading postings to say the least!

A shoot at the Barbie Suite, in vegas, or beauty bar, 1 of a kind set, or a private castle in no way can be compared to shooting in a field or on location at an event. There are huge differences between that overall "experience", and lets go out and shoot somewhere TFP. Face it, Pinup photography is NOT high fashion and the sooner people learn that the better, photographers are rarely being contacted by an art director, given a budget and told "We need a pinup themed shoot, make it happen"

If both the photographer and the models stand firm with their hands out in the air, where would we be? Throw the MUAH talent in the mix too... There is room for both, however the grey area is not defined and incredibly large. Little peggy sue that appears in a magazine that gets only online distribution seems to think she's a magazine model and starts asking to get paid way too early in her career with a crap "portfolio". This happens just as often as big bob the photographer says he would never shoot TFP. It creates a divide that no one wants to admit is there because each directly contact people they want to work with on TFP basis.

If i were a model in that grey area where I think i'm ready to flip the script to become a paid model, you'd see me posting: PHOTOG: Looking to shoot mod style, $50 gets me dolled up w great MUAH, NEW wardrobe + 4hr session.

Regardless lets try to keep this on topic, how to deal with the different types of Casting Calls on PL.

e

Jason Allen said:

It's actually against the rules (or at least it used to be) to post casting calls on Model Mayhem asking to be paid. I find it to be a kind of a tacky way of drumming up business, but to each their own I guess. - Jason

[Jason Allen]

Yeah, I did, and looking back, I think it was a tacky thing to do on my part, lol. Especially since BR and Karin were already drawing in plenty of work for me. (which I still owe them my life for.)

Isn't there a separate section for advertising? I dunno. This is a really tough one. I just think casting calls should be people posting "calls" looking for certain other people for projects or gigs, either offering pay or trade. To do it the other way around, to me, seems equal with saying " hey, let's work together.... oh, and by the way, that'll be $350"

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

Edson {PL Team} said:

Interesting thought. I believe you had threads for paid shoots when you traveled to new locations. It's not a secret that due to MM's attempt to keep things TFP it's become a petri dish of creeps with the occasional amazing photographers looking to book a TFP shoot.

Regardless of their attempt, many of the threads state TFP for specific models selected, and "great rates" for others. HIGHLY misleading postings to say the least!

A shoot at the Barbie Suite, in vegas, or beauty bar, 1 of a kind set, or a private castle in no way can be compared to shooting in a field or on location at an event. There are huge differences between that overall "experience", and lets go out and shoot somewhere TFP. Face it, Pinup photography is NOT high fashion and the sooner people learn that the better, photographers are rarely being contacted by an art director, given a budget and told "We need a pinup themed shoot, make it happen"

If both the photographer and the models stand firm with their hands out in the air, where would we be? Throw the MUAH talent in the mix too... There is room for both, however the grey area is not defined and incredibly large. Little peggy sue that appears in a magazine that gets only online distribution seems to think she's a magazine model and starts asking to get paid way too early in her career with a crap "portfolio". This happens just as often as big bob the photographer says he would never shoot TFP. It creates a divide that no one wants to admit is there because each directly contact people they want to work with on TFP basis.

If i were a model in that grey area where I think i'm ready to flip the script to become a paid model, you'd see me posting: PHOTOG: Looking to shoot mod style, $50 gets me dolled up w great MUAH, NEW wardrobe + 4hr session.

Regardless lets try to keep this on topic, how to deal with the different types of Casting Calls on PL.

e

Jason Allen said:

It's actually against the rules (or at least it used to be) to post casting calls on Model Mayhem asking to be paid. I find it to be a kind of a tacky way of drumming up business, but to each their own I guess. - Jason

[Edson Carlos]

Thanks for coming back to elaborate and knowing that I wasn't talking about you specifically! Yes yes yes, you have us thinking out loud even more now...

KEEP THE FEEDBACK COMING!

Jason Allen said:

Yeah, I did, and looking back, I think it was a tacky thing to do on my part, lol. Especially since BR and Karin were already drawing in plenty of work for me. (which I still owe them my life for.)

Isn't there a separate section for advertising? I dunno. This is a really tough one. I just think casting calls should be people posting "calls" looking for certain other people for projects or gigs, either offering pay or trade. To do it the other way around, to me, seems equal with saying " hey, let's work together.... oh, and by the way, that'll be $350"

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

Edson {PL Team} said:

Interesting thought. I believe you had threads for paid shoots when you traveled to new locations. It's not a secret that due to MM's attempt to keep things TFP it's become a petri dish of creeps with the occasional amazing photographers looking to book a TFP shoot.

Regardless of their attempt, many of the threads state TFP for specific models selected, and "great rates" for others. HIGHLY misleading postings to say the least!

A shoot at the Barbie Suite, in vegas, or beauty bar, 1 of a kind set, or a private castle in no way can be compared to shooting in a field or on location at an event. There are huge differences between that overall "experience", and lets go out and shoot somewhere TFP. Face it, Pinup photography is NOT high fashion and the sooner people learn that the better, photographers are rarely being contacted by an art director, given a budget and told "We need a pinup themed shoot, make it happen"

If both the photographer and the models stand firm with their hands out in the air, where would we be? Throw the MUAH talent in the mix too... There is room for both, however the grey area is not defined and incredibly large. Little peggy sue that appears in a magazine that gets only online distribution seems to think she's a magazine model and starts asking to get paid way too early in her career with a crap "portfolio". This happens just as often as big bob the photographer says he would never shoot TFP. It creates a divide that no one wants to admit is there because each directly contact people they want to work with on TFP basis.

If i were a model in that grey area where I think i'm ready to flip the script to become a paid model, you'd see me posting: PHOTOG: Looking to shoot mod style, $50 gets me dolled up w great MUAH, NEW wardrobe + 4hr session.

Regardless lets try to keep this on topic, how to deal with the different types of Casting Calls on PL.

e

Jason Allen said:

It's actually against the rules (or at least it used to be) to post casting calls on Model Mayhem asking to be paid. I find it to be a kind of a tacky way of drumming up business, but to each their own I guess. - Jason